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* them out of the organization than to keep them on. I felt that we owed them more than that, a better investigation, a more clear-cut decision one way or the other. Hathaway: Sounds like Richard Helms the civil libertarian. Helms : Well, it isn't so much a question of being a civil libertarian as it's just honest-to-God fairness with respect to people with whom you'd worked, whom you had assumed were as dedicated as you were to the work of the Agency and that to have them smeared when sometimes there was no real basis for this was unfair, and I wanted to see justice done. At least as imperfect as human justice can be. I wanted to at least satisfy myself that I wasn't simply being swept along by somebody who didn't like the man, or who had an odd beat in his head or felt that the chain of circumstantial evidence was so persuasive that it had to be proved. I just didn't like those things. Hathaway: Well, if you'll permit me to say so, that's why Richard Helms is so well-liked and respected in the Agency as he is. Helms : Thank you. Mathaway: That concludes my questions but before we cut it off, let me ask one more. What else should I have asked you about defectors, about penetration of us or of other western services? \ Helms : There is only one other comment that I think I might 25