◆ SpookStack

wouldn't be very good testimony if it were not for the fact that the defense attorney has an opportunity to cross-question that witness and challenge the statements he's made and point out in some cases to the judge and the jury that he might have lied or that he didn't have his facts straight or that there was some other element involved. That's the tension in the courtroom, and this is the tension in the intelligence business. And that was what I saw as the function of Counterintelligence. I realize that when I was Director some of the most difficult, in effect painful decisions I had to make were to resolve differences between the positive intelligence collector and the Counterintelligence Staff. But I figure that's one of the jobs that a Director is paid to do in the last analysis, to be the court of last appeal. If these are painful decisions, that's just too bad. One shouldn't change the system just because you have some pain with it. I think that covers essentially my feeling about this counterintelligence business. Hathaway: Well, that's a good background for us to proceed. James Angleton, of course, is a key figure in the Agency throughout these year.s. Can you talk a bit about Angleton, about your relationship with him? Apparently.you and he go back many years. What was his role i.n the Agency? 4