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SECRET 2 (S) b1 KAK:rs GUNDANG: Right. That's what I, I, I find a problem with uh, with uh these organizations, the ANc and some of these uh so-called liberation movements. They speak about democracy but to them democracy means their point of view and nothing else. KAPLAN: The more the pity. I spoke to a great many people who were present at several of his meetings. Some of them were those that gave money and were actually pulled in see but very much in shock about MANDELA's being so totally, I can only say stubborn. It is believed that he can, he can worship. communism, he can worship uh KHADAFy, he can worship anybody he wants. And he can give everybody that is unr advice of how we should act reasonably then, by the way he did also talk to Mrs. THATCHER. GUNDANG: THATCHER, right. KAPLAN: And, and thinks that we, we, see it's a second coming. We felt almost as if he was to here to become the, the foreign God of the United States. GUNDANG: Well I was telling my wife UNT in passing that if I had to go to any country and if thousands and thousands people told me how great I was, after a while I start believe that.. KAPLAN: You know, I don't want to be unfair because he is a great man in his way. I accept the 27 years of suffering which changes... GUNDANG: Right. SECRET