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vho have to obey at all times ali the: ‘ues, wi ther good ‘eri-Sr? would you rather have a person witlf sonmie in- iividuality, who might perhaps create something of last- ng worth for society, but at the same be a problem to ‘ety. Because ! believe that, of course this is the old singsS Of the castiation theury, but at the’same time I wk that most people realize that there are ‘those who .0 have problems, and wha say that our ‘goal is simply ‘o make everybody a law abiding citizen without thought of what that might do to research, what it might do to ietters, or arts, or artists, pr anything of that nature, why i don’t believé that you'd have a very useful er very pro- iuctive, or a:very creative society. There are inevitably .oing to’be certain conflicts between the individual and he masses at all times, so when you say that you want o prevent this, I’d have to ask you in turn, do you mean hat your objectite would be ‘at all costs mefel) people vho obey the law, independent of any consideration whe- her or not that this obeying or submission 0° the law vould essentially mean that, and nothing more.” “When-Lrefer to Jaw or rule, I mean plain com- mon sense or good conduct, which most of the laws are usually based. on, The acts that I am referring to, are armed robbery, armed violence, and molestation, | and even stealing guns. These things I bave known about, and these people are personatly intelligent, and they have done these things, and have realized what they have done. Now ypu are referring to the indi- vidual's respect to the community, or to retain his entity, which I certainly feel is a most- important thing, But the law itself, in reference to the whole community should be applied to them, so this pro- ductivity can continue, because these same people may impede the progress of another porductive person by the actions that they commit.” . “Well, that’s true, of course there has to “De a line irawn even if it’s arbitrary, but at the same time, before is interview began, we mentioned Cellini and Villon, and inink that they-would have a terrible time in today's ociety, and yet look what they have left for posterity. ‘ion is said to have written some of the finest’ literature nd poetry that France has had, and of course .”. ” “Js that the price to be paid then?” ~~ “Well, in some instancés, it seems to be the story at vast. Now perhaps with the advancement in psychiatry, owl be able to find ways to channel those drives, and oeialize these. people to an-extent more than-we have ‘one in the past. It seems to be, in some instances, in reative fields, the inevitable price that must be paid both y the individual, and the community. And, of course the nal answer to that, I’m unable to give you. I'm merely ble to say that historically, it seems to be the, case.” “while I was in the scrvice, I saw how police in other countries have handied suspects, and I exen saw that some of the common courtesies were not eve! equsidered. As the severity of the case was greatef, the considerition. grew proportionately less.. And ave also learned while talking with, people in other. countries, and reading, how practices. similar to this occur by law enformement agencies in these coun- tries, For instances the deputies who are guarding you now They probably never have gotten a salary com- mensurate with the work that they perform. To pro- the average hard-working individual who is pro- ing for his family, raising chitdren, and trying to progress in his own way, and probably all he expects is to enjoy the peaceful pursuits of their individual endeavor without fear of molestation. Well, the laws in our country are often based on precedent, and lots of-ccsss-have been decided on that, we've stauicdmat in schoo}. mid of the background of this c: would van-feel that the decision by the court if it were in your favor and you were set free, what effect k this would have on these pcople who fancies that you jaye udonicded to. Anis would deter then. “ur woul , or would this make them think y Tne opposite would be true, if what you're get- j that they might interpret it as a license them- be more violent. I feet that anyone who is famil- fA this case at all, and certainly there are many aa that includes mostiy those who have hag difficuttje: with the law, have been aware how close I've been t execution so long, and have commented on the nature 0: this ordeal, and how they don't feel that they would like to go through it. I don’t believe that they uHimately woulc teach the point where they would rationalize this thine and say ‘well, even though he did ten years in the death row, that is still all right because he got out. So I ca: do this, and safely feel that I can get out In the fi place, if I do get out, it’s only going to be because ulti |mately there is going to be a decision that I wasn’t guilt; to begin with on the charges. So that certainly I don’! feel that the potential criminality of someone else car be equated with what might be done with me if the de cision is in my favor. On the contrary, I think that it would be an experience where they would feel, “well, 1 better watch out for this, or I might wind up, as a con- sequence of. having been on this side of the fence, in 2 Death Row, in a prison for a long time, because it's easiei once you have been in trouble, to be suspected a secont time and a third time whether rightly or wrongly.” “Well, how about the notoriety of your case, do you feel that like the books you have written, the press, stories written about you, radio, television, and press. Do you think that this has aided your case, or detracted from it, or would you like to say anything about that?” - . “Yes, I definitely feel that it has impaired my abilit; to get back into court. I feel that there has been so much controversy and such a great atmosphere of hostility and prejudice in view of the nature of. the offenses, that it's extremely difficult for the thing to be weighed strigtly as g matter of law, and here we run into perhaps one of the greatest problems of all, and that is, at what point is the judiciary completely {ree to decide a case on its merits, irrespective of whether it is a popular’ or an un- popular case, and how much public opinion should in- fluence the decision of the judiciary, and there again the independence of the judiciary is extremely important J believe.” . “I have one fast mathematical question for you, You once said that you were a gambler, and it’s obvi- ous that you still are a gambler. Do you think that your odds are getting better?” . “I think that I am in a better position than I ever have been. Once I’ve had this day in court, and I would like to say right now without going into the merits of this case at all, that I feel that I have had procedural due process at this hearing without question, so that this case will be decided this time happily on its merits, I’m con- fident of that, and I feel that its’ going to be a fair ani eqattavie—decision. °