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were * thing. 2048 clear that I do not claim to know all the Communists in the State Department. I do not have any counter-esplonage group that can go there and ferret out all the tnformation. I have also pointed out that the State Department refused to discharge—and so stated in a press conference—205 individuals who, its own security agency said, were unsafe risks. If the Senator has any further*questions, I shall be glad to yield. Mtr LUCAS. Mr. President, will the Benator yield? . Mr. McCARTHY. I Field. Mr. LUCAS. I now repeat the same question I asked the able Senator in the beginning: Did the Senator from Wis- cousin, in a speech at Wheeling, W. Va., Thursday, February 9, declare that he had a list of 205 persons working for the State Department, who were known by the Secretary of State to be members of the Communist Party? Mr. McCARTHY. I may say, Benator is eoing to make a farce I wil) not yield to him. Mr. LUCAS. No. Mr. McCARTHY. I told him three times. I read the speech to him. I tid him I sald there were 57 Communists in the State Department. I told him there were in the State Department 205, who, eccording to the President’s own BSecu- rity Board, are unsafe risks. They said, “Mr. Gecretary, fire these men. Dis- charge them.” He refused to do it. I quoted Secretary Byrnes’ letter, telling him to do that. I shall not answer any tore slily questions of the Senator. This fa too important, too serious a matter for that. I am trying to get down to the point of showing the Senate cases, facts, and dates, so that the President will ad- mit that he was wrong, and I hope the Genator from Illinois will admit that he went off half cocked in Winois the other day when he said, as the President said, this is all lies, and tried to prejudge the case. Mr. LUCAS. Mr. President, will the Benator yield? Mr. McCARTHY. I will be glad to yield for a question. Mr. LUCAS. This is pretty serious to the Senator from Tilinols, and it is serl- ous to the Senate, and it is serious to the country. The only thing I am ask- img the able Senator is whether the news- papers misquoted him. The newspapers quoted him, and there Is an editorial in the Washington Post, which is libelous tf not true, in which the Senator is quoted to his speech at Wheeling, W. Va., as maying that he had a List of 205 persons working for the State Department who were carrying Communist cards. What I want to know is merely one simpie I did not find anything in the speech to bear out what the newspaper reported to be true. The Benator keeps talking about 57; the pewspaper says the Senator said there were 305. That rep- Fesents quite a difference, and it is of #mportance, whether the Senator from Wisconsin made the statement or did not make it. He can answer yes or Bn to that, He may sey thet In his speech he did not make that statement: be may have made it in a conference of some kind. But it was carried all over rT . . CONGRESSIONAL RECORD—SENATE + the country, through the Washington Dewspapers, the New York newspapers, and the Chicago newspapers, that the Benator said he could name the 205 who were carrying Communist cards. It may be a silly question in the eyes of the Senator from Wisconsin, and that, as he said, I am trying to make oa farce out of this thing, but it is a serious charge; the Senate and the © country are entitled to know the ‘Bar Biota Peers ae Senator’ 8 question? Mr. LUCAS. It is serious to me. Mr. McCARTHY. Let me answer the Senator's question, for.the third time. I will tell the Senator, and I am now re- Ppeating it, if the Benator will sit down and give me the time to do it, that there are a‘ Jeast 57 Communists in the State Depariment, I think, without any trou- ble at all, with sufficient investigation, we can find the 205 for the Senator. As to what the Washington Post says, I do not know, and I frankly do not care, T think thapis clear. J will not answer the Sen- ator a fourth time. I said that I made speeches. I have said there were 57 Communists in the State Department. I wired the President to that effect. Mr. LUCAS. Mr. President, will the Senator yield? Mr. McCARTHY. I am not yielding to the Benator now. I have wired the President to that effect, and I told him those names were avaliable to him. f al now going to give the Senate of the United States the facts, and I refuse to go further into the question raised by the Genator from Tinois. Let me tell him now, so there-may be no question in his mind, I said §7 Communists were in the Btate Department, I said there were 205 in the State Department whom the Secretary of State refused to discharge, altbough his loyalty board said, “Dis- charge those men.” Now, is that clear to the Senator? Mr. LUCAS. ff that is what the Sen- ator is saying, I can understand; but what Iam trying to find out is whether newspapers have deliberately distorted wuat the able Senator said in his speech. Mr. McCARTHY. I refuse to yield further to the Senator. Mr. LUCAS. I want to find out. @ Mr. LEHMAN. Mr. President, wil] the Senator yield for a question? Mr. McCARTHY. For a question, certainly. Mr. LEHMAN. Do I correctly under- stand the Senator to claim he has sub- mitted the names of the 57 cases to which he refers and the 205 names which are referred to, not only in the Washington Post but in s number of other pews- papers, to the State Department? Does he claim he has submitted the names of 87 and 205, or any substantial number? Mr. McCARTHY. The answer to the Senator is, "No." The answer is “No.” Mr. LEHMAN. Mfr. President, will the Senator yield for another question? Mr. McCARTHY. Iam glad to yield. Mr. LEHMAN. Does not the Senator believe that, interested as he is in com- hatting communtem, and we are all tn- terested in combetting communtsm, that it is his duty both az a Senator of the United States and as an American to sub- Bfae Fo anemar the WEG 4 BUShwE. Ws -hearing the evidence, and said, “The FEBRUARY ‘20 mit those names to the Mate Depert- ment or to the Senate, in executive sea Mr. McCARTHY. If the Senator will but sit down and let me make my report te the Benate, he will heave all the in- formation he wants. The Senator from . Wisconsin does not need any advice on his duty as a Senator, in this respect. Mr. LUCAS. Mr. President, will the Benator yield for os one question? Mr, yield any further. Mr. WHERRY. Mr. President, I de mand the regular order. The PRESIDING OFFICER. The Benator from Wisconsin will proceed. Mr. LUCAS. I beg the Senator's yield later to the Senator. Mr. President, I am going to have dif- ficulty talking, while the Senators are chatting. The PRESIDING OFFICER. Let there be order in the Chamber. Mr. MCCARTHY. I shall be glad to yield for 6 or 40 minutes to let the Sena-~ tors carry on their conversation. Mr. President, I have before me infor-_ mation from the State Department Biles, information which the President says the Senate did not have. Having this infor- mation, it is a serious question as to what should be done with ft. I originaly thought possibly we could hope for some cooperation fram the State Department wend the President. However, in going ever the material and finding that all of it, of course, has been available to the State Department, for it is all from their files, it seemed that nothing would be gained by calling it to their attention again. The President, I felt, had demon. strated his lack of interest quite thor-~ e@ughly during all the Hiss investigation. said, “par, President, T have the 57 names they are yours if you want them”; and when he answered by calling me a Har I felt I could get no soopersiion from the President. ‘Then, when the majority leader, with- out even discussing the matter with ma, though he kmew I had stated that I had the information, he made a speech In Titinois and prejudged the case, without f ator from Wisconsin is a Mar,” J could get no cooperation from the dority leader. It was then suggested T ask the Committee on Expendit the Executive Departments to go matter and that I submit the nam that committee. I talked to some members of the committee. thought perhaps the Committee on the Judiciary or the Committee on Foreign Relations, or beth committees jointly might have furisdiction, and they thought zy gue individuals who have been interested in the subject, digging up this in? _ mation. They felt that under the presco. clreum- . oT