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9 b1 {5) KAK:rs GUNDANG: (Cont.) meant is that pe..people would then have to uh let go of pre- conceived notions and listen to what I had to say about the realities and the complexities of the South African problem. And at no stage did I ever defend apartheid and having been a victim of....(tape cuts out)...always done is uh to explain the complexities of the South African problem and the challenges that face all South Africans irrespective of race, color, creed in trying to surmount these problems in as peaceful a manner as possible. KAPLAN: UNT RAFIK, I had expected a different person to come here but you have read I must say a very good unr also to the ANC and to Mr. MANDELA because all he does seems to be very good. (Tapes cuts off then on) KAPLAN: ..he has had a tremendous impact by the large black community in Los Angeles but do you think he'll have a great impact upon the non black communities here with his, with his very very strong anti- semitic and anti unr anti-white attitudes? GUNDANG : Right. You see uhm, it's disappointing and it's sad that uh already even at this early stage and when we're talking today NELSON MANDELA's been here just in the United States for two days. He should have come here as a, uh a South African who is committed to establish in..establish a non racial uh democratic South Africa. But he is being manipulated here in So...uh, in the United States