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lpehesiithdhn afta mainte diced ~ 2058 investigators Into his State, perhaps I gould obtain 105 or perhaps 1,005 wit- nesses who Would make statements about the Senator that would be totally untrue and incorrect, and the same investiga- tors might go to 2,000 other persons who would say, “Those 105 people are not tell- ing the truth at all. They are very an- gry with the Senator use he voted for this bill or that bill that they did not Hke.” Did the Senator ever think of that? Mr. McCARTHY. Mr. President, if the Senator from Connecticut had been in the Senate Chamber earlier this evening, he would have heard that ques- tion answered. The Senator from Dlinols demanded, foudly, that I furnish ali the names. I told him at that time that ao far as I was concerned, I thought that would be improper: that I did not have all the in- formation about these individuals. I have enough to convince me that elther they are members of the Communist Party or they are giving great aid to the Communists. Imsy be wrong. That is why I said that unless the Senate de- manded that I do so, I would not submit this publicly, but I would dabmit it to any comm!ttee—the Senator's committee or any other Senate committee—and would Jet the committee go over these in executive session. It is possible that some of these persons will get a clean bill of health. I know that some of them will not. Mr. McMAHON. Mr. President, will the Senator yleld further? Mr. McCARTHY. I yield. Mr. McMAHON. The Senator has made my point for me, however, namely, that in the files that he has, there is only derogatory information. Mr. McCARTHY. No. Mr. McMAHON. And that he is not able—— Mr. McCARTHY. No. Mr. McMAHON. That he is not able @ give to the Senate the information which contradicts the derogatory infor- rmoation. Mr.McCARTHY. That is not true. Mr. McMAHON. Because if the Ben- tor has it and Lf he is not giving it to the Senate at this time, it would appear to me that he is trying to present 8 Ong- sided picture. Tsay to the Senator thet there is no desire on my part to prejudge a single one of these cases. I do not need to tell the Senator that I am as much opposed to communism in the State Department er in any other Denartment as he is. But I tell the Senator thet in the course of my career I have examined many Government files and many in- vestigation records, and I have seen in the files statements that, “This man McCarthy” or “This man——— Mr. McCARTHY. Make it “Jones.” Mr. McMAHON. Or “This man Smith is a terrible person. He is not to be trusted. He defrauds his creditors. He even beats his wife. He has been seen going around the carner with sus- Picious-loaking persons.” And then if we go to other persons in the community, they assy, “I am not at all surprised that you have been told ro CONGRESSIONAL RECORD—SENA‘H that, because Bmith had a fight with a man named Jones, who lives down the atreet. I will bet that you got an inter- view with him, and that in it he ssid that this fellow Smith is a terrible man.” I cal] attention to the possibility that if we had the whole file before us, as on- doubtedly the State Department bas, the information the Senator from Wiscon- ain is giving the Benate might be con- tradicted to the point where creditable witnessesigr creditable evaluators af the flies would say. “In that event. we can- not believe that information.” I do not say to the Senator that that is so; I merely point out the possibility of its being so. Mr. McCARTHY. I think I have a fairly good digest of the files. However, in such a case as this, I think we must give the American people the benefit of the doubt. Instead of there belng 587 Communists in the Btate Department, let us say that there are only one or two. If there were one or two Communists who were serving a5 top officials in cur Btate MHepartment, that alone would be fully sufficient to keep the opposition informed about the operations of the Department. Mr. McMAHON. Mr. President, will the Senator yield? Mr. McCARTHY. [f ask the Senator tO permit me to finish my statement, please. I have said to the Senator that I am mOt indicting the 81. TI have said there is sufficient tn the files to show that there ia something radically wrong. HT the Senator will remain here and will Hsten t some more of the cases, I am sure he will be convinced. After all, he came to the floor after IT had been speaking for some time. Mr. AIKEN. Mr. President, will the Benator yield to me? Mr. McCARTHY. I yield. Mr. AIKEN. Will the Senator advise the Members of the Benate now present whether he is presenting to the Senate a aeries of personal opinions about the per- aons or whether he Is presenting matters of record? Mr. McCARTHY. Iam not presenting anything except what is confirmed by the files of the individual concerned. In other words, in one case the intelligence department sald, “Get rid of this man. Six professors, some at the University of Californie and some at Harvard, say this fellow is a fellow-traveler, a Communist, “a close friend of Priedman, secretary of the Communists in California, and & close friend of Harry Bridges.” But the “top brass” in the Stete De- partment say, “No, because he has not committed any overt act.” Mr. McMAHON, Mr. President, will the Senator yield? Mr. McCARTHY. I am glad to yield. Mr. McMAHON, I certainly would not Judge the case upon the basis of what the Benator has just said. I certainly think—and I think it is the American system— Mr. McCARTHY. Mr. President, I sarah er pet for a speech. Mr. McMAHON, Does not the Sena- tor think ft is the American system that when a man is sccused, he shall be given a bearing, that 2ll witnesses for him and against him shali be heard and ad- FEBRUARY £0 judged; and then, upon that juotigment and upon that evidence, does not the floor of the United States Senate, the way to handle this matter. That is my question. . Mr. BREWSTER. Mr. President, will the Senator yield? Mr. McCARTHY. I ask the Senator from Maine to permit ne to answer tha Benator from Connecticut first. If the Benator from Connecticut had * been here a little earlier, he would have beard the majority leader demanding that we do exactly that. He demanded that I present the names and indict these people before the country, without giv- ing them a chance to be heard. I said, “No, I wil] not do that unless the Senate demands it.” I said, “I have the information. I want to present it to any Benate commitiee, and have the committee decide about it.” This information is nothing new. It bas been there a long time. If the Ben- stor or anyone else who is Interested had expended sufficient effort, he could have brought this to the attention of the Benate. Ido not fancy at all this condemnation of an attempt to bring this matter be- fore the Senate. I intend to give al) the facts. From the information which I have before me, I agree with the intelli- gence &gencies which have said, “These men should not be in the State Depart- ment.” I agree with the intelligence agencies who said, “Do not give these men top-secret clearance.” .I may be wrong. That is why I am not naming them. But I think that soon— tomorrow-—the proper Senate commit- tee that is actually interested, not in in- vestigating people who may be Commu- nists, Dut in investigating as to whether or not the State Department is overrun with Communists, ahould examine inte these matters. Mr, BREWSTER. Mr. President, will the Senator yield? Qfe B22 6D Tore 3 inl Gl. BAU TIE. £4 FACIL, Mr. BREWSTER. Is not the essence of star-chamber proceedings thet the public are not permitted to know the facts? Is not the essence of the kind of government which we here are fighting the kind of executive government which refuses to permit the iegislative author- tty to Know the truth? After the revelations in the Hiss and the Pochs and some other cases would it - wot seem that the Congress should be permitted to exercise its historical au- thority, never denied until recent years: am™i does it not seem strange that the Executire would refuse to permit those in the Senate and in the House of Repre-