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1950 Mr. McCARTHY. That js correct. Mr. WITHERS. But the Senator re- fused to do se. The Senator asked if I could state a better way. I will say a better way is to give the Senate, the pub-- lic, the press, and e e the name of every person the Sengtor says labors ander any suspicion. oS Mr. McCARTHY. I thank the Sena- tor for his suggestion. I do not think I will follow it, however, but I thank the Benator very much. Mr. WITHERS. I would be better sat. fsfied tf I could go along with the Sena- tor in that way. I would hate to follow the Senator only in part. Mr. McCARTHY. I was not trying to be humorous. I respect the Senator's judgment. I have given the matter a great deal of thought, however, and the way I am presenting the matter is the way I think it should be done, and I in- tend to present it in that fashion. Mr. WITHERS. The Senator simply # tells us there are persons who are Com- . munists but does not tell us who they are. Isthat correct? * Mr. McCARTHY. I believe the Sena- tor was pot on the flocr of the Senate all evening. I have stated repeatedly that I would go before any Senate committee and divulge names. I have said further that if it were the feeling of the majority of the Senate that they did not want it done in that fashion, that they feel we can do it In a better way, that we can do a better job by making the names public on the floor of the Senate I will be glad to abide by that decision. However I think that would be a mistake. Ihave dug out fmformation which I think ts of the ut- Most importance and I think we should get down to the job of trying to clean out these unusual people. Mr. WITHERS. Does the Senator in- dict or accuse or what is he doing in this speech? Mr. McCARTHY. I did not under- stand the Senator's question. Mr. WITHERS. Is the Senator in- dicting those whom he claims are guilty of the charges he makes? Mr. McCARTHY. Am I tndicting those who are guilty? Mr. WITHERS. Yes. ¢ Mr. McCARTHY. Iam not indicting those who are guilty. I am giving the Senate information about persons whom T consider to be Communists in the Stata Department. Mr. WITHERS. In other words the Genator is suspicious that something is wrong without calling the names? . Mr. McCARTHY. The Genator is a @mart men. I know the Senator is. I have had many conversations with the Senator and I respect his intelligence. The Senator knows ezactly what I am doing. The Senator knows I am giving the Senate what, the State Department's investigative agen¢y has sald about these investigations. When the State Depert- ment’s investigative agency has said that this man is a Communist, and that agency says he should not be Working in the State Department, I am teiling the Senate that. When the officials of the State Department aay they will not discharge the individual, anyway, I am giving that to the Genate. I am giving all the information I can to the Senate. CONGRESSIONAL RECORD—SENATE The Senator from Eentucky knows ex- actly what I am doing. Mr. WITHERS. Does the Senator know that I, like all others, am curious to know the names? ‘When the Senator gives the cases, the press and country at large would like to know who they are Mr. ARTHY. First let me say that this matter is too important for me to use it as @ utensil] whereby I can satisfy someone's curiosity, no matter how much I would like to see his curiosity satisfied. I do not intend to satisfy anyone's curil- osity. I intend to do everything I can to try to clean up what I consider to be a bad mess. Mr. CAPEHART,. Mr. President, does the Senator yield? Mr. McCARTHY. T yield. / Mr. CAPEHART. Is it not possible that the Senator from Kentucky might learn the names of these people sooner than he might like to? Mr. WITHERS. I would like to imow them if the Senator would tell me. I . Will make this observation. The Senator from Kentucky certainly could not learn the names too soon. HF the individuals im question are guilty, I should lke to say to the Senator from Indiana that no American could learn their names too acon. Mr. McCARTHY. If I may suggest to thé Senator, he is a member of the Majority party, and I trust he is on much better terms with the President than I am. All the information I have given the Senate is in State Department files. There are several ways the Senator can obtain the names. No. 1. He can go to the President and say, “Mr. President, how about this case number so-and-so? Let me obtain the farther facts on it.” Another way is to ait in when the Proper committee asks for the names. A third way, I will say to the Senator, fs simply to come over to my office to- morrow morning and he can see the names, and I will satisfy his curlosity. Mr. WITHERS. I shall be glad to. Does the Senator object to my divulging the names, if I see them? Have i that privilege? Mr. McCARTHY. I think it is up to Mr. the people who they are. ~- Mr. McCARTHY. I think it is up to the proper committee to decide whether it wante to divulge the names. Let me make myself clear to the Senator. If the majority of the Senate want me to divulge them in that fashion, yes. But I am not going to follow the Senator's advice and ay, “Here you are, Senator, divulge them.” Period. Mr. LUCAS. Mr. President, wil the Benatar yield? Mr. McCARTHY. . yield. Mr. LUCAS. The Senator divulged four names in his speech in Reno, Nev. Why does the Senator refuse to divulge others before the Senate? Mr. McCARTHY. The Senator knows - that he is not stating the facts correctly. I read the speech I made. Mr. LUCAS. Oh—— Mr. McCARTHY. Let me finish I read the speech I made. Mr, LUCAS. Oh-—— mer -“Were you naming the-67?" Mr. McCARTHY. Do not read to me from the Washington Post. Mr. LUCAS. I have the New York tor wants a copy of that record I ahall be glad to write t~ the Republican com- mittee there and ask them Benator a copy of the record, I think it Will cost about $3 or three and a half. The Senator can play that record if he wants to. Otherwise, he can read what I read today into the ConczrsalomaL Recoap. T said there was a man, John Service, and I did not say he was one of the 57, An AP reporter called me and asked, I said, “No. I did not say these people were Com- munists. They are not part of the 57. I said, “Here is John Service.” IF gave his record. Now I may think he is a Communist, but I do not have his file. His file for some mysterious reason has disappeared and is locked up in the safe of the top brass of the State Department. I discussed Service, who was picked up by the FBI when turning over State Depart- ment documents. I pointed out that while he was in China he recommended that communism was the hope of China, I commented, as I recall—and It is all in the Recoxp here—on the fact that he was pow on his way te Calcutta, India, to establish an Indian policy. I made tt very clear that he was not one of the 57. Then I took two other names and I anid, “Here is what happens when you clear them out of the Bta’ partment.” - I gave the name of Mrs@Kenney, who had been listed by the FBI as @ courier of the Communist Party while working for the Government. I pointed out that when she was forced out, because of pub- lc pressure and the FBI statement, that then she ends up where she is today, in ome of the educationa] organizations or in some part of the UN Organization. I pointed out that the other one—and the Senator was present, and I should not have to repeat this again—who had been in the State Department as secretary to an Assistant Secretary of Btate. He was labeled as an outstanding Communist. When he was forced out of the State Department he went to work for the UN, I think both those individuals are Com- munists. Certainly if they are not, they look like them, they talk like them, and they walk lke them. As one of my farmer friends once said, if a fow! looks like a duck and quacks like a duck and ests like a duck we can assume It is a duck. Those two individuals certainly answer that requirement. Then I referred to « fourth one. I made it very clear that he had never been with the State Department. He is a man called Shapley. He headed up the peace conference in New York. I pointed out to the Senate that Shapley had headed up this outfit that the State Department called a tool of Russia and a sounding board for Com- munist propaganda. That was in April The State Department isued a press re- lease in July, to the effect that they ap- pointed this man on the advisory com-